Friday, October 12, 2007

Realistic Vs. Cartoony

Life May Be Real But Not Realistic
I found the following dialog while site hopping, I post it here to illustrate one of the most typical conversations in drawing, illustration, animation and comic forums and blogs. I can't tell you with certainty just how many times I've read similar exchanges, if you're a regular visitor you know I love to generalize and exaggerate to drive my point home, this time however, instead of going into a lengthy tirade full of bile and profanity, I will let others tell you how I feel about this subject. I find fascinating and intriguing the fact that this is even a matter for discussion. The reluctance of artists and art students to recognize the paramount importance of life drawing in any artistic discipline or endeavor dealing with the human figure is really baffling to me. Most young artists (and some not so young) refer to the practice of drawing from life as "Realistic", "Realistic" as in "Not Cartoony". There is a beautiful book Stephen Silver and yours truly are preparing on the subject of LIFE drawing and how it ties in with character design for animation, comics and game production, I'll tell you more about that book as we near completion.

My intention is not to humiliate or embarrass anyone by pointing out their short-comings (or their nearsightedness) I omitted their real names and the link to this discussion for that purpose. I think this was a healthy argument which was handled in the proper manner by all involved.

I truly believe a lot of the antipathy towards life drawing is born out of laziness and ignorance, most people just don't want to put the time and energy (and commitment) that is required to learn the fundamentals. Everyone wants to ignore the hard. repetitive and boring basics and jump to the funky stuff, it is much later in their artistic journey when they get to realize skipping steps wasn't such a great idea after all. Some become amazingly good at 'inking', rendering and coloring but a turd is still a turd, no matter how polished and well-rendered.

Most of us find anatomy really difficult to learn and down right intimidating, I count myself among those who bought tons of anatomy books at the beginning of my art education and couldn't bring myself to even open the goddamned things, let alone read them or make sense of them. that's understandable but a lot of people -as you will see in this case- can't find anything beneficial in the mastery of figure drawing; guess what? human anatomy IS DIFFICULT to learn, the human body IS COMPLEX, no doubt about it but life drawing chops are no different than any other kind of skill worth acquiring to become good at anything you choose to do in life and if your chosen profession, vocation or hobby includes depicting living things, regardless of style, you should get to know your subject matter as thoroughly as possible, Heck! salesmen, the biggest scum of the earth, learn how their products are put together and develop a real thorough understanding of how they work from the inside out, not to be able to one day fix them, but rather to convincingly sell the products and services they offer.

If sales people take the time to learn intricate contraptions and the complicated inner workings of devices they might only be selling for a few months why not us, artists, who can and will use our knowledge for the rest of our lives?

The answer is MOTIVATION, yes, that's all that comes between you and mastering your craft. Sales people see a direct (and fast) connection between boring knowledge and money, the more knowledgeable they are about the subject the more successful they will become at convincing people to buy it. They're so motivated by the end result, they don't even stop to think about how boring and unispired those manuals seem to be, to them, those otherwise boring pamphlets and product guides are the key to success, in real human terms: financial success.

While there are obvious differences in both professions, I honestly don't see why we, artists, can't look at anatomy books and at learning the secrets of the human figure by drawing from life, furiously and on a consistent basis with any less importance. The payoff (being able to draw whatever you want, anyway you want it, convincingly without fear should be your motivation, putting aside the more noble and artistic merits of a solid art education, which should be rewarding in itself, and if you only think in terms of financial gain, think about this: the more knowledgeable artists are the best equipped to earn a more lucrative living. If you still don't find motivation to go back to basics then you're not serious about your art, and that's fine too, but if that's the case, you can forget about quick tips to make your horrible drawings any more appealing, it ain't happening!

If you really have a dislike for "realistic" drawing, as defined by the ignorants out there, then go find something else to waste your time on. I don't fancy myself as an authority on figure drawing, far from it, and trust me I say this without an iota of hipocrisy or false modesty, I'm light years away from where I'd like to be artistically, but still I get tons of requests from fellow artists and students to evaluate their portfolios and to give advice or tips on how to improve their figure drawing (namely female drawings) How can I tell someone who has mastered the art of rendering to an enviable extent, that his figure drawing lacks the proper foundation, that his women lack 'life'? and I don't mean "realistic" quality, I mean excitement, believability, readability, character and appeal.

What tips can I give someone seeking a quick fix, a Photoshop filter to a lifetime of neglect an avoidance of the basic principles of human anatomy? People just want a few shortcuts to make their cartoon women (or men or animals) more appealing, what's so wrong with that? . . .Well, plenty! Without learning how the body (human or animal) looks and works in life, we can't draw credible cartoon characters, whether animals or human, or a mix therein.

This is one of the most courteous and respectful exchanges I've encountered. I really like the way these nice people behaved towards one another, there was a real sense of community, people giving good, constructive criticism and sound advice, trying to help without scolding each other and without being mean-spirited at all.

The following is an actual chat, which has been edited for continuity's sake and the names have been changed to protect the innocent. Any resemblance to living persons is absolutely intentional. Don't sue me, I'm broke.

Ronald is a comic book artist looking for help to improve his drawings of women in his manga-style comic.

Ronald: Can anyone point me to so good resources, or somethings to specifically do or look for?

Jeremy: . . . Loomis was grounded in the glamorous advertising style of the 1940s, so he has a very classical approach, but he teaches the ins and outs of construction, composition, anatomy and form beautifully.

He draws beautiful men and women and his lessons on creating a mannequin and proportions for the body as well as his extensive lessons on constructing the face are indispensable.

I'd start with "Figure Drawing For All It's Worth", but he goes into more detail on the face and skull in "Fun With A Pencil"

Theresa: The best way to learn to draw anything is to learn to draw it from life -- or at least from photos! The good news is that this will involve you looking at lots of ladies in the buff or with swimsuits on.

Loomis is also a good place to start -- but I definitely recommend going back to real life whenever you can.

Ronald: Some good resources here. I guess I don't see how drawing to life would help because I'm not trying to draw realism, I'm trying to draw cartoony.

Jeremy: Drawing from life is ESSENTIAL no matter what style you're working in, whether it's Charles Schulz or Norman Rockwell.

In drawing from life you learn and internalize the way the body works, the way the face works. Then when you draw cartoony, you simplify and essentalize that knowledge into your cartoons. It makes them more authentic, more clearly readable, and more attractive.

Theresa: But a cartoon is real life distorted for a specific effect. If you try for the distortion without understanding the basis of it, how likely are you to succeed? Exaggeration in a way that is both successful and appealing is not easy! And it's even harder when you start out with no basis at all . . . .

. . . .Pish-toshing at real life because you "don't want to do realism" is cheating you of that great experience with 3D that makes cartoons look like a world of their own. Most animators have a bunch of life classes under their belts, even though they might end up working on highly stylized designs. It shows, too -- most animators can draw circles around you and me.

Ronald: I'll have to look more at these examples later.

I'm still very resistant to realistic drawing. I always figured one draws simple first... and then add a buncha crap to make it realistic. I don't like drawing realistic, and not a big fan of realistically drawn comics.

I'll draw a realistic image some time though, and post it.

I'm positive making proper skeletons would benefit me as well. My friend has been trying to get me to take a class, but this hobby is already so expensive o_O

Still thanks for all of the advice so far.

Christopher: It is actually the other way around. First you draw realistic, then you take out a buncha crap :)

Seriously thought, that idea that "I draw cartoony so why should I learn to draw realistic stuff" is the main reason why a lot of artist scoff at manga artists, because a lot of manga artist rely completely on 'How to Draw Manga' books and not on learning the basis of real life drawing.

I'll be honest, I started out that way, and it's been hell and a bit of purgatory trying to get rid of a lot of 'shortcuts' I learned when I was younger . . .

Jeremy: Alex Toth famously said "I spent the first half of my career learning what to draw, and the second half learning what not to draw."

The more you do life drawings the better your cartooning becomes. They support each other.

Ronald: I'm fairly decent at mimicking, i think, but drawing without an example sure is tough for me. I always feel like I'm cheating... drawing from example that is... but I guess that is the "learning process" :/

Stephane: It absolutely ain't cheating. All artists do it. It's also the only way to learn.

Christopher: It's a two-step process. You only get to draw things out of your head after you've practiced drawing them while looking at them for a long time.

My advice is to find somewhere local you can do life drawing sessions. Nothing beats drawing a person standing right there in front of you. It takes a surprisingly short amount of time to get over the fact that they're nekked :)

Ronald: I challenge that. My libido may not let me concentrate, and my moral syste, would be like "Stop gawking! She's a person dammit!" I mean, yea, she may be a model, and she knows what she's doing... but that is just, well, the pinacle of treating a woman like an object isn't it? I'd feel better if I knew her first I think.... I have a couple women friends that actually might be keen on it.

Christopher: Of course you're treating her like an object! That's why it's not shexy! In gesture drawing a person and a bowl of fruit are of equal value- except that only one of the two will help you draw comic characters.

Jeremy: Seriously, most men and women models in life drawing classes are NOT sexy. :)

It does happen, but most of the time they just look like normal people in normal poses with no clotheses.

Ronald: I'm not saying I'm not attracted to slender and/or athletic women, I just try to draw women... well... more "realistic" in their build :D

Theresa: You don't get any time to sit around like a loose-jawed yokel in your usual life session. They usually jump right into short poses (30 seconds to 2 minutes) and you have to scramble to get the pose down. By the time they've hit the longer poses, you've had some time to get used to it.

Stephane: Nothing wrong with enjoying the appearance of women. most of them probably want that. just as long as you still manage to treat them with respect.




hi alberto :)

i remember bringing up this subject reffering to your eye candy book

i said:

regardless i totally agree with you and those in the chat

without the original, you can't make a duplicate

even if it's an exaggerated one

or in this case...

without looking at life

you can't depict from life

and so you can't cartoon/characture convincingly

some forget we are:

depicting - from - life


copying from the original

then copying so well that our drawing - looks real - ilistic

like - real

so we are all copiers and are not original since we've learn the basics the same way

we all are cartoonists / characturists no matter what big words we label ourselves

of course some consider cartooning as a lesser artform compaired to the real deal

sort of like how mainstream america treats all comic books as superheros for children/nerds

without looking to other genres to find out that comic books are no different than other entertainment forms

most don't care what someone went through to produce the product, they just care that the product is available

i've gone off subject but you get my drift :)

btw don't ya just hate the term graphic novel

graphic - novel: to describe a novel(which it isn't because the story is told differently and told in many ways) with pictures (storyboards) which might not be part of a series or make it sound like it is only for adults

labels suk

Joe Chiappetta said...

In the very end of the world, realistic will win, because everything else (fantasy) will pass away. But until then, it's a free for all battle with no winners or losers.

Process Junkie said...

Comikxguy: No, I think you've got it wrong, drawing from life is NOT copying reality. Although ther are some uninspired artists out there acting as cameras orcopy machines.

Drawing is interpreting what you see, it involves emotion, passion and observation. Learning the fundamentals makes you understand how things work and how they are built and strenghtens your vision, it can only help you interpret things in your own unique way. In fact when you look at the best gesture drawings made from life, you can clearly see that they have very little to do with so called 'realistic' drawings. They're just a few strategically placed lines which usually capture the essence of the pose, accurately and effectively.

Joe: There is no battle, there is just good drawings and poorly put together drawings, regardless of style.
Unless you are being sarcastic (and I believe you are) you missed the point.

Furthermore, realistic art does not exist. Even when attempting to depict reality we must exaggerate and invent in order to convey the likeness and character of whatever it is we're drawing, anything other than that is tracing from photographs.

Dario Reyes said...

Voy sacar de contexto este comentario que hizo comikxguy:

"of course some consider cartooning as a lesser artform compaired to the real deal"

En el momento que clasificó de "real deal" cometió su equivocación. No existe aquello que si es "real deal" contra lo que no lo es.

Ya sea caricatura, comics, o algo mas "academico", todo es "real deal".

Con respecto a la discución sobre "cómo aprender el dibujo de la figura humana" no hay mucho mas que agregar. Lo escencial es aprender los fundamentos (y con fundamentos no me refiero a las tecnicas o atajos en el dibujo) sino cómo se mueve y se presenta esa "maquina" tan compleja como es el cuerpo humano y su infinidad de posibles representaciones.

Saludos y felicitaciones por la publicación de Bocettos.

io, Darius.

Process Junkie said...

Bien dicho, Dario!
Gracias por tu comentario.


your right alberto

copying was the wrong term, i think the right terms would be:

try and accuracy

i should have put in there that we all "try" to come close to an accurate depiction of the subject so that our drawing looks as real as the subject

accuracy, honing the artistic skills to a level close enough to depict reality (realilistic)


go half way to make it not as real (cartooning)

i can be wrong

but that was what i was "trying" to say

i'm not sure i got it right this time either, oh well :)

i'm also curious what dario said, could you translate?

btw i'm mexican, i just wasn't taught it

DAN-VAN-COOL said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
DAN-VAN-COOL said...

This is an e-mail I wrote to Alberto commenting on this post. He asked for me to post it for him so others may be inspired from it.

Your last post was quite the read :) Ronald on a much lesser scale sounded like me until I finally wanted to improve on my drawing on a much more serious level. I'm glad I got past that stage of disregarding the importance of life drawing. Hell, I'm still taking classes for it and I'm a full time Animator. Just as Theresa said, us animators feel its necessary to take those classes to keep grounded to such essential basics. I wouldn't say I can draw circles around anyone though :D I would say to those who choose to disregard life drawing (realistic) that they simply are choosing not to grow as an artist. I would say at least do some of it to know and experience the value in it. I'd say if you are serious about wanting to grow as an artist you'll do it and you will see the benefits in your work within a few classes.
I'm telling ya when I stood there in the first life drawing class, I went there knowing I was gonna being drawing outta my comfort zone. I was frustrated and had to just get those shitty gestures outta me. After an hour my teacher told me to "draw what I see", and constantly "refer back to the model", rather than seeing a leg...then drawing what Ive always knew a leg should look like. The catch was that I sure as hell didn't know what a leg looked like until I really saw the shapes and curves a leg really has. Once I spent a few classes training my eye and hand to see and act the way I learned, It seriously boosted the quality of what I could do. It was like an Epiphany! It was the biggest jump I have had in my skill level so far and it did nothing but fuel my motivation to draw and raise hope that I can one day do this professionally. I'm now coming up on my first full year working as an animator and I'm still trying to draw as much as I can. Including life drawing classes.

Mike M said...

Great post Alberto. It's typical of many young and anxious artists to want to skip steps, find short cuts.We live in this short-cut era. In the end you hopefully realize there are none, just honesty, critical thinking and discipline, lots of the disciplne of drawing.
that answer isn't sexy for many thought.

Drawing is also about orginization. A cartoon style is a drawing that has been designed, thus there was a lot of thought on what you show, don't show and how you show it. if you don'y know it, how can you effectively show it or leave it out? It's clear in the great drawings by animators at places like Disney they really knew how to draw the figure to break rules and make them have the essence of life in such a few deft strokes. They are but one example, pic any great artist, Lebron, Picasso, Jack Kirby, they all took from life to inform their art.

We all have likes, dislikes, personal taste, the hardest part for the young artist is to set aside the likes and then the dislikes to learn, not to put the cart before the horse by being so obcessed with style because that's what attracts us all in the beginning.

Going back to school myself now I am really on a different learning curve and it's such a fantastic experience for me, even after almost 25 years as a pro.If i am not open though, I'm not going to get the benefits.

In the end it's about education, educating yourself and being open to learning the cannon of figurative or realistic art. Anatomy, perspective, composition, line, value, etc.

Once you have these then man, you can soar, but without the real knowledge you are always a wounded, stunted bird.

Process Junkie said...

Couldn't have said it better mahself!

Thanks for chiming in, Mike!

StudioRisingStar said...

Geeze another great debate on the eternal question of art! Figure/life drawing is an important aspect of art education and art in general. Whether you draw realistic(classical) or cartoony(exagerated) you need life drawing to make it strong. There is nothing wrong with either way. It takes skill to do both and some artists are have strength in drawing exagerated,simple, cartoony illustrations while others are better at classical, photo realistic, life drawing. i don't understand why people hate on manga or anime because of it simplistic rendering of anatomy. Those artists learned traditional figure drawing but,they simplify the characters down for what they need it for. I understand that not every form of art or artist is for everyone but, honestly why can't we just except what these artists are presenting to us.. their own god given way of expression and just enjoy the art for what it is..ART. The back bone of all art is life drawing and imagination. Sorry if I went on a tangent Alberto...... Great work on your books man!


hey 'berto i think what studio said sums it up

doncha think so?


alright, lets move on to the next topic :)

Process Junkie said...

No one here hates on Manga or Anime I think you the missed the point entirely, we're talking about learning and applying the fundamentals reagardless of style, that's it.

Now since you mention Manga, I will tell you what I think about it. Personally I couldn't care less for it why? because it's boring and predictable and repetitive and stale, aesthetically it does nothing for me. There's no vitality in a "generic" way of depicting things, wheteher is Manga or American superhero comics, both "styles" are so generic, the character, individuality and personality of the artist has been surrendered or was never there to begin with (which is worst) the salt of life is variety of form, Manga and Anime go against the very principle of great art, it's like wearing a uniform. Barring nearly imperceptible nuances, manga offers zero variety. A lack of diversity for me is death.

And I'm not talking about vision, creativity, storytelling or plot or substance of said plot, I'm talking about the visual language or visual alphabet or the generic use of icons of devices or symbols used in depicting human beings. Or whatever you wish to call them. In layman terms: Everybody draws the same way, artists are interchangeable, I am not attacking manga, I'm merely stating the obvious, I don't like a world in which everyone draws the same way. I used to find them cute when I was a child (love them robots but hated the depiction of people) As an adult I just find it boring.

The worst books to learn human anatomy (besides the Hogarth series and anything Christopher Harts churns out) are the "How to draw manga" books. Even Manga artists know this.

What we are saying is: a poorly put together drawing lacking substance, structure and such sound fundamentals as anatomy, and perspective has nothing to do with cartoons or with exaggeration Manga, cartoony, or whatever.

I say go learn how to draw from life before you draw cartoony, Why is that so dificult to understand? Your drawings are bad not because they're manga or anime or american superhero style but because they are ill conceived, because you didn't not take the time to learn and apply sound anatomy and perspective principles.

Mike M said...

This point you are making Alberto is really so often missed by the young artist because they cannot seperate the idea that STYLE is not art.

To learn art, to do something difficult like learning how to draw the figure amazingly well, not just in a riff of stylistic motifs you have to abandone mannerisms.

So, if you LOVE manga, that's what fires you up, it's difficult to remove the manga glasses because most of what you do is mammerism leaarned from copying a particular style.

I deal with this all the time as a teacher.I dealt with it as a young artist as well, we all do. What the young artist, or any artist truely wanting to learn to draw well must do is abandon their mannerisms, their comfort zome and learn the imporant concepts and truth of something like anatomy, perspective, drawing form in space, line, tone, etc.

Then, after a time of producing hundreds of drawings, studying the great artists of the world who produced timeless great drawings and learning how to achieve a hierarchy and a discipline and orginization in your drawing you will have a style as a natural output, consequence of all of the above channeled through the lense of your own personality.

All the great drawers of thw world, cartoonist, fine art, animators etc., do this.

Process Junkie said...

I have come to the realization that, people are not interested in learning how to draw well. They couldn't care less, they say they want to but they're full of shit. Only few are and those are the ones who will go on and dictate the pace and set the trends, the rest are just a waste of time.

They are only interested in copying others, they're happy being followers, being slaves to celebrities. See, my theory is that most "artists" out there are nothing but fanboys, they all want to draw like this guy or the other, what about drawing like yourself, man!!??

I've often said that in order for any artist to grow as an individual, he or she MUST stop him/herself from becoming a 'fan'. Fans are dumb and are blind, there's nothing positive about being a fan, unless, of course you are the object of said fandom. What the fuck does the word fan means, anyway? it means fanatic, as in obsessed, crazy! filled with excessive and single minded zeal.

An artist can't allow other artists' mannerisms to erode his own personality. But isn't that normal? aren't we all fans of one thing or another? Yes, it is a very human trait and it could be a driving force when channeled in the right direction. But when it comes to worshipping others, being artists or some dumb fuck celebrity whore. That to an artist in training (and who isn't one?) can be detrimental. Don't let your obsession with Maga, Anime or hero comics, or anything else, blind you into submission, learn the fundamentals, draw from life, learn anatomy, learn perspective, be a Man! Goddammit!!

There is nothing wrong with admiring an artist or his/her art, don't misunderstand me. But to allow the object of our worship to rule our lives and to be so embedded in our own work to such a degree that we can't see ourselves in our own art? just plain stupid. Everytime I see your drawings I see others, in fact a see a diluted version of others, I want to see you, don't you want to see yourself?
I thought art was about self expression, you wanting to tell the world about yourself and how important and individual you are, don't you have anything to say but I'm a copycat? Well, Fuck me!!

If , as Oscar Wilde has said "The aim of life is self-development. To realize one's nature perfectly" why draw anime? hah, hah! just kidding, fanboy! relax. I mean if the porpose is self-development and individuality, why be like everybody else?

Because you're not an artist, that's why!! only regular people are allowed to be sheep, a real artist is not a sheep or a clone of someone else. That's all I have to say about the subject. People confuse preferences and fetishes with design aesthetics nad fandom with artistdom, if there is such a word.


it's like telling a film critic to just enjoy the movie huh ?


sometimes its just the way it is, sometimes people let one thing override the other and sometimes there is no alternative

if they have someone to care for:

for some striving for "perfection" can be less important than taking care of loved ones

heck, i've seen humberto stress about that one too

he's real good now :)

so now he can artisticly go for his own "perfection"

most likely at home

once they have that, then they think of their own "perfection"

family "perfection" first, self second

care for others above one's self?

me, i'm ok with very little but i also have to think of that as well

so you know they save the real art for home but at work it can be different


its not about not caring, its about how much someone has to let go of

Process Junkie said...

You know what else I realized, my grammar is only worse than my dislexia. I'm so fucked!

By the way, I was so focused in writing my last comment I did not get to thank the gracious Mike Manley for his contribution to this conversation.

comikxguy: did I miss something? who's Humberto? just curious.


focused / dislexia ?

more like disappointed in other "artists" :)

who's humberto?

mr. "i draw characters with really big feet" ramos of course

it was when he left image to go to dark horse due to his page rate

he published his book there, then marvel picked him up and put him on a x-men book

he's so busy now he STILL doesn't have 5 minutes to post :)

continuing from my last post:

family "perfection" first, self second

care for others above one's self?

the alternative to helping one's family can also be to artisticly strive to get that better page rate/pay

or again be independent like you :)

Process Junkie said...

Hmm . . . . I'm confused but that's not your fault.
I was born confused.

Self development has nothing to do with neglecting your family, if anything, by becoming a better artist you just might be in a better position to provide for your love ones like you say at the end of your comment. When I talk about self-development and realizing one's own nature I mean don't ape someone else's style, develop your own.

For the record, I am dyslexic and let me tell you, that's nothing to laugh about. I'm independent only because I can't work alongside others in real life, i have no choice in the matter.


you mean proper shapes of a subject

make a leg look like a leg etc.

not the layer under the subject

figure construction is skipped to the over all shape instead of working from parts of the subject to acheive the over all shape of the subject

this can be drawn or not but instead mentally drawn - working from the inside to outside - parts

drawing the shapes of the subject looking from the outside, you go here when you have mastered the figure construction

THE STYLE OF COLOR AND SHADING ETC. - which enhances the shapes and the figure construction

you can't have one without the others

like stephen silver and yours (alberto), style of shape is curvy not straight lines so therefore his/your shape style is not angular, it can be if your mentally projecting an angular box (figure construction)for a body and then you draw curvy

you work from the outside of the subject, where others work from the inside(construction)out

you can understand why everyone gets so confused

its different techniques to achieve the same thing

boy, did you open up a can of worms :)

born confused? screw that, your still my art papi :)

i'm glad you are an independent

i wish all artists, all people were

your work is from you, not from corporate

i don't have to wait on you to get personal work from

all your work is personal

that would be completed, not cancel by the 2nd issue, which makes me think that i got ripped off

corporate does this continuously

so i constantly feel ripped off

no wonder people go to other forms of entertainment

imagine watching a movie you bought and half way through the movie it stops?

you complain but corporate doesn't continue the movie they just put out something else

its like damn, that's my last 20 bucks i could have used it to buy a full movie right?

which is why i now go to complete works, trades, one-shots, etc.

i'm tired of it

and so is half of the readership too, most have already left and most won't come back

man, they need to do something about it


even if you weren't "confused" i'm sure you'd still realize that you had to be your own man

just that some can't afford to be on their own

some prefer it that way

some just don't

or some do both

i'm going to post something i wrote that night just before you came back with the "how to draw well" rant

curious what you say about this one and that one :)

btw 7:00pm is 4:00pm here :)
now you know its 3 hours earlier


10 minutes later :)

this topic should be titled:

construction for the artist - building a good foundation without shortcuts


being a true artist vs. the paycheck


what is a professional?
(you might want to use this as the next topic)


life drawing vs. "winging it"


mainly applying, enjoying and appreciating art from the originaters, the masters

if you have to be a fanatic, be a fan of these masters

not using watered down teaching from other sources

get in line, don't cut, enjoy yourself with others in the line, don't rush

you might get there but as soon as you see yourself there you look back and realize that the rewards are greater by being there

being able to learn from the others enhances your ability which makes you appreciate the experiance even more

not just pay the bills

do you want to be an artist or do you want to be a product pusher ?

being an artist is learning from the masters and being friends with the current ones

learning from them with a good proper backing up with the fundamentals (life drawing, recognizing good and bad construction, bad advice, the right books/classes etc.) so that you don't have to push

"please sir, i can't stand cup o' noodles and food from the local ampm anymore, please buy my book, if you do i'll go down on ya" :)

everything you create will then take care of itself so that you can be an indepenent artist or both who actually enjoys art

enjoying art, what a concept

like bobby chiu and alberto right?

i think this says it too:

"there is just good drawings and poorly put together drawings, regardless of style."

its construction (the fundamentals) put there by the greats which is interpreted alot by bad constructors (like manga/anime) who push the wrong books/wrong masters to learn from, not what you can put on top of the construction (style)

bad / weak fundamentals = bad style = bad drawing realilistic or cartooning/charactures

it falls over

good construction, good drawing

before style

yeah, for most its a get-it-done world now

at work: its being a product pusher because of deadlines, work for hire

the more work you churn out, the higher the page rate and the better you take care of things at home

its just a job

at home: its being an artist, for those who care more

the answer is be an independent artist mostly if not all and very little work for hire if needed

be your own man, be an individual

don't let your lifestyle control you

there is a difference between a fan/fanatic:

1) uses the art to improve ones self through practicing the masters and learning from the new ones

2) the one who just collects wishing without the drive, without using the master's teaching

ok, have at it :)

Process Junkie said...




i think this means we can move on now

next topic:

so what is a professional?

sometimes you just have to realize you can't change everyone's perspective to anything and they can't change yours

but you can try to

talk IS cheap

be you and be your own way

isn't THAT what an individual is?

:) thankx for the rant


sorry alberto :)

i'm one of those guys who will take a subject and run it into the ground until everyone gets fed up and quits

luckily i don't visit message boards, they would tear me up

way too many conversing, i don't mind a one-on-one

outside of that, i'm pretty quiet most of the time

i'm not just a "compliment thrower"

i don't mind a little verbal brawlin', not yelling - a discussion, a debate

even when i'm full of it and don't know what i'm talking about

it can fun sometimes

thankx again, i'll be back for more


Process Junkie said...

That's cool, I respect your honesty.

A good rant is like a good drawing, you have to know when to leave it alone. I have to learn that, myself.

I do believe it's time to let this one go, we're not adding anything new or constructive to the conversation, we're going around in circles. Frankly, I'm dizzy!. :p

In the inmortal words of the Colonel Samuel Trautman: Please click here to listen


yep johnny, the debate is over :)

"you have to know when to leave it alone. I have to learn that, myself."

yeah, that's what i do with most topics, but if i feel something about it enough i'll say something but when i do i do that

everyone has to blow up at least one a month right ?

now what do we talk about ?


Process Junkie said...

Fuck this blog, you need to get laid.

Blogs and forums are fun and all that but interaction with a living, breathing being is good once in a while . . . where's my dog?


been there, done that with too many of the wrong ones like your dog :)

but i'm working on correcting that

hey, guess what?

i'm going to a JOB ! in an hour and a half and tomorrow morning i have to show up at another one!

i've now got 4-5 possible jobs now!


Process Junkie said...

High-Five, buddy!

Best of luck tomorrow, Knock 'em dead!


if i knock 'em dead, that means i won't have that job! :( ;)

oh well, i guess that leaves the other four :)

time to save up for SDCC and yours and bobby's online classes, really

as soon as i get my computer upgraded and some programs

i'll be completely new to it, so be gentle, i don't want to have a sore ass when i'm done :)

thankx buddy!